Bellhousings for Flathead V-8's (322 & 346)

[Mark Lowery]

Greetings,
As I was chipping away at 70 year old dirt and grease on a spare bell housing from a Cadillac V-8 of unknown pedigree, it dawned on me that I really don't know if they all interchange.  I am going to send this out for sandblasting and powder coating to use it on my 1937 LaSalle motor, if it fits.  On the passenger side (right) towards the rear is the number 831 cast into the exterior of the housing.  Does this somehow identify the part and perhaps indicate the year?

The pivot for the clutch has seen better days, and I'd like to remove it and replace if they are available.  Has anyone out there replaced this part and if so, what was the source?

One last question, the engine was painted in the classic " Ditzler Bell Tell Green" the recommended color 30 years ago.  I know I can get the proper paint from Bill Hirsch, but has anyone used Polyester Powdercoating in a color that comes close to matching the original Cadillac Engine Paint?  Since it is kind of "back there", I'm thinking that the match needn't be perfect as once installed, it is difficult to get a really good straight-on look at the bell housing.

Any advice would be appreciated as I would like to get it to the sandblaster next week, but if it doesn't interchange, I'll call off the dogs.

Mark Lowery, CLC #25216

[Tom Beaver]

Mark......I am no expert on bell housings but I do know that those for 37 and 38 cars are different from 39 and later.  While I think they will all bolt up to the engine and transmission the mounting points for the clutch release fork and clutch linkage mounts are different.  I have a 39 bell housing on my 38 but I had to do some machine work first to make it work.

Tom Beaver

[Bob Hoffmann CLC#96]

According to the 1942 MPB, 1937 thru 1940 are the same & 1941 & 1942 are the same. I think it has do with the clutch pivot, but  I don't remember for sure.
HTH.
Bob

[Doug Houston #2257]

Firstly, since it has a clutch pivot, it ain't from a Hydra-Matic.  I have no real thoughts on the exact year.

I have an engine bracket that I painted about 35 years ago, in the Ditzler Bell Green, that I always used. I had wrapped it in paper, and put it on the shelf in my parts stash, and it saw the light of day only recently again. I took it to my powder coater, and found a close match from his color chips. It shows as RAL 6003. It appears that everybody who makes colors for powder coating, uses the same color standards.

I think that there is a couple of heads for one of those engines laying hereabouts, and if I can find them, I'm going to have them powder coated in the hi-temp coating.

[tozerco]

I think that there is a couple of heads for one of those engines laying hereabouts, and if I can find them, I'm going to have them powder coated in the hi-temp coating.
[/quote]


Doug,

Last weekend I had the pleasure of seeing a Packard V12 that had been powdercoated, including the heads. It looked magnificent and I wondered what the secret description should be when I contact my powdercoater about my flathead heads. Any advice?

Regards,


John Tozer
#7946

[Mark Lowery]

Mark......I am no expert on bell housings but I do know that those for 37 and 38 cars are different from 39 and later.  While I think they will all bolt up to the engine and transmission the mounting points for the clutch release fork and clutch linkage mounts are different.  I have a 39 bell housing on my 38 but I had to do some machine work first to make it work.

Tom Beaver

Tom,
From your reply and Bob's, looks like I might need to proceed carefully.  I'm wondering if since you replied, an further detail has come to mind as to what the modifications were?  The other thing that has come to my mind is that I recall the engine this bell housing was mated to used the "peanut" plugs.  I recall an earlier thread that detailed the years when these were used on the flathead V-8's.  I think it was in the 40's, so according to your and Bob's information, I probably have the later bell housing.

 So again; Anyone out  there that has used a later bell housing on an early engine (standard transmission)?  And if so, what was the nature of the modifications that were required?  I am particularly interested in knowing if it involves machining that would argue for waiting to refinish until the mods are done, or if it is strickly bolt-on.

Thanks,
Mark Lowery, CLC #25216

[Doug Houston #2257]

TO JOHN TOZER:  I think best to kick this around with your powder coat guy.  He'll have to tape the surface of the heads that face the gaskets, of course. There may be other things that he will want to do, as well.

If I cn find those heads, they may well end up on my 38-60S.....even if they aren't original.

[Mark Lowery]

I think that there is a couple of heads for one of those engines laying hereabouts, and if I can find them, I'm going to have them powder coated in the hi-temp coating.



Doug,

Last weekend I had the pleasure of seeing a Packard V12 that had been powdercoated, including the heads. It looked magnificent and I wondered what the secret description should be when I contact my powdercoater about my flathead heads. Any advice?

John,
I'll check w/ my powder coater next Monday, but I don't think you need to use the high temperature formulations for heads.  The cure temperature in the ovens approaches 400 degrees F and I don't believe the flathead "heads" get that hot in part because the exhaust ports are actually in the block, not in the head as is the case w/ OHV engines.

Not sure if there is any drawback to using the high temperature formulations other than cost and perhaps a lesser selection of colors.  These products which are a rather recent development are evidently even suitable for applications such as exhaust manifolds.

Mark L

Regards,


John Tozer
#7946

[Tom Beaver]

Mark ..... Attached is a picture of, from the left, a 39 bell housing, a 38 and a 37.  Note that the 39 clutch mechanism uses a shorter bearing release fork, of stamped steel design, with a correspondingly different location for the bearing release fork pivot ball.  The clutch linkage attachment point on the side of the 39 bell housing is also different because they changed from the long screw-in linkage mount used on 37 and 38  to a short screw-in ball pivot which supports one end of a shaft and bell crank which runs between the bell housing and the frame.  Cadillac must have used all sorts of different clutch linkage arrangements because I looked at the clutch linkage on a 38-60S and it is very similar to the 39 LaSalle.  A second attachment shows the 39 bell housing which was re-drilled and tapped to accept the long screw-in linkage mount at the side and the 38 clutch pivot ball and cast iron release fork.  There was enough clearance between the new and old mount points that there shouldn't be any problems with weakening the structure.  Hope this helps.

Tom Beaver

[harry s]

There is also an extra hole on the right center of the '37 bellhousing that accommodates the shifting fork shaft of the floor shift transmission. I have heard of people drilling the later bellhousing to use the floor shift transmission.

[Mark Lowery]

Tom,
This is exactly the information I needed!  From the photos, it appears that I was working on a 39 or later bellhousing.  The throw-out bearing release fork pivot ball on this (39?) bellhousing is about 3-1/4" radially from the center of the hole for the transmission input shaft.  I see from the 2nd photo where you moved it further away to accommodate the 38 fork.  It also appears in the first photo that you have a mark for the location of the clutch linkage attachment point which then is in use on the second photo.

All told, I may be better off sticking w/ my 37 bell housing and trying to get the broken piece welded back into place.  It is the flange on the interior on the left side, and to my recollection it is not broken through either of the holes in that side.  If that is correct, then the broken piece serves only to strengthen the bellhousing and is not critical to alignment.

I think I'll follow through with sandblasting and powdercoating the spare bellhousing now that I have a better idea of what it fits as perhaps I can trade someone for a good 37.  In case you are wondering why I am so vague about the broken 37 Bell housing, it is in storage about 160 miles away.  Hope to retrieve it this weekend and take it to a shop that would be (hopefully) up to the task of making this weld in cast iron.

And thanks Harry for reminding me about the shift rod that extends into the bellhousing on the floor shift transmission.  That makes 3 holes that I would need to accurately locate, bore and [in two cases] tap to get the 39 BH to work for my 37 LaSalle.  All this argues for fixing my existing and/or trading for a usable core from a 37.

Mark Lowery, CLC #25216

[Mike Simmons 938]

To further muddy the waters, the 1940 bell housing  doesn't even have a hole for the clutch pivot. It utilizes and L-shaped bracket that is held on by two of the bolts used to hold the inspection cover on. Mike

[Brad Ipsen CLC #737]

And then the bell housing to engine shape and bolt pattern changed in 41 when the hydramatic came along.

[Mark Lowery]

Mike, Brad and of course Tom;
With all this information and the photos, I'm confident that my "spare" bellhousing in a 39.  This has been most helpful.
As mentioned before, I'm going to see what I can do to weld mine (37) up and then I'll post in the Buy/Sell forum offering to trade my 39 for a good 37.  In the mean time, think I'll go ahead and get the 39 sandblasted and powder coated so it would be ready to go for anyone that can use it.

Mark Lowery, CLC #25216