Author Topic: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?  (Read 2426 times)

Offline 35-709

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  • Name: G. Newcombe
Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2010, 03:11:37 PM »
#1.  Who you callin' a cockroach??

#2.  "People are strange, and there are so many of them!"  Annnd they vote!

 ;D  Geoff N.
1935 Cadillac Sedan
1973 Cadillac Caribou

When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

Offline Otto Skorzeny

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Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2010, 03:20:09 PM »
#2.  "People are strange, and there are so many of them!"  Annnd they vote!

As Winston Churchill once said, "The greatest argument against democracy is the common voter."

Anyway, it would be nice to find some documented evidence explaining the standardization of negative ground rather than supposition or guesses.

The reasons given regarding corrosion seem dubious since, to my knowledge, electricity doesn't care where the circuit is grounded - just that it is. I've never experienced excessive corrosion on any positive ground vehicles I have owned. ( Ford 8N tractor, Humber Super Snipe, MG)
fward

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Offline Bob Hoffmann CLC#96

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Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2010, 04:37:35 PM »
OK guys,
Here's some information. I have a book called Automotive Wiring Manual published in 1920. It has wiring diagrams for all cars made before 1920. Cadillacs were + ground, but Buick & Chevrolet were - ground. I flipped thru all the pages & I feel that 6V - ground was the most popular followed by 6V+  and then both + & - 12V. Dodge had 12V -. Instead of adopting the Dodge 12V - system, the "industry" forced most everyone to go 6V +. The military demanded 12V or 24V. They KNEW what they were doing. Despite that fact, the auto makers STILL kept 6V systems WAY too long. 
Bob
1941 conv. cpe. [2]       1970 Deville conv.                           1941 62 cpe. custom   1957 Oldsmobile 98 2 dr. HT
    1958 Chevrolet Impala conv.
1968 Eldorado HT         
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Offline Otto Skorzeny

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Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2010, 05:05:58 PM »
That's pretty interesting, Bob.

What does it say about the military requirements for ground?
fward

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Offline Bob Hoffmann CLC#96

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Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2010, 05:19:57 PM »
Thanks Forrest.
The military statement was unrelated to the book. I was just remembering seeing both 12 & 24 V systems used  with military applications. Maybe someone has the answer re the ground.
Bob
1941 conv. cpe. [2]       1970 Deville conv.                           1941 62 cpe. custom   1957 Oldsmobile 98 2 dr. HT
    1958 Chevrolet Impala conv.
1968 Eldorado HT         
white/red/slick top
Too much fun is more than you can have.

Offline Jose Gomez

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Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2010, 05:45:52 PM »
Folks,

Just my personal views..!

This topic was raised in multiple boards including here with several points of views and comments as to the integration or migration (in some cases) for the automobile industry to implement a positive ground versus a negative ground.

Several views/comments made on one versus the other such as wire and battery terminal corrosion, extending the plug life, etc could all be correct but again there is no substantiated evidence of such, this primarily due to lack of standards or general collective data and studies back then that one was better than the other.

Although the standard body such as SAE (Society of Automobile Engineers) was originally set in 1905 in the USA, it was just to promote an exchange of ideas onto other societies.  In 1928 the idea for a society of engineers specializing in automobile electrical trade industry was address in the UK.

Since then these standard bodies had slowly implemented standard changes for the auto industry. If anyone sat on one of these standard bodies (ISO, ANSI, IEEE) meetings you wished you could have a root canal done without Novocain than meet at one of these, root canal is more fun. ;D

Last implementation by the main manufactures was also a slow process, it did not happen overnight. What we know is all major USA manufactures GM, Ford, Chrysler and their respective subsidiaries used either or system. However with the introduction of the 12 volt systems in the mid 50’s (1955/1956) the negative ground was predominant the setup in the automobile industry but not fully implemented by all.

Footnote, 1948 UK manufactures star to use 12v electrical system, 1960 alternators started to replace the generators, 1965 the negative earth/ground was reintroduced.

I would suggest reading the “Automobile Electrical and Electronic Systems” by Tom Denton 3rd edition; it has a few notes on this topic, the footnote above were from his book.  This book can be found on-line.

Forrest, Bob,

If I recall the dual 12V battery system in military vehicles was use as a 24V for the starter/generator motor only, the rest of the electrical system lights, etc was 12V. The book Bob mention can be found at
http://www.archive.org/details/automotivewiring00wellrich
J. Gomez

Offline Otto Skorzeny

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Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2010, 06:00:25 PM »
The lack of any readily available data or scientific explanation on the subject of automotive electrical ground leads me to believe that there are no real benefits of one system over the other.

In other words, whether a system is positive or negative ground makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.

I suspect that the choice to adopt negative ground systems as the universal standard was entirely arbitrary. Perhaps GM, by virtue of it's size decided to go negative  understanding that the the world would eventually follow. Perhaps, Jose's ISO, SAE, IEEE guys just sat down one day in 1945 and flipped a coin.

It's at least as plausible as any of the other theories posited.
fward

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Offline Andrew Pullin

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Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2010, 11:32:37 PM »
OK, so I'm not totally familiar with this "positive ground" wiring scheme, but I'll toss in what I know about electronics:

In the US, we think about "conventional current", where the electrical current flows out from the positive terminal of a battery, through a circuit, and into the negative terminal. That is, positive current moves in the direction of decreasing voltage.

But consider that "current" is really electrons moving through the circuit in some manner, and electrons are negatively charged. So when we think of 1 Amp of current flowing from the +12vdc / positive terminal to the 0vdc / negative / ground terminal, the electrons are actually flowing in the opposite direction: from the ground terminal and into the + terminal.

In some countries, they refer to "electron current", which corrects for this. It's just defined to be in the opposite of "conventional current", so 1 Amp conventional == - 1 Amp electron.

This might not actually explain it, but it's worth knowing.
Andrew Pullin
1940 La Salle Superior hearse
http://andrewpullin.org/hearse/

Offline mgrab

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Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2010, 06:51:20 AM »
My guess:
GM had two or more E. Eng's (much like Tesla vs Edison) that had conflicting opinions on which was better.  They probably sat down to lunch together are argued points much like this thread.....I've seen similar situations many times before. That could expain why Buick, Chevy, Cadillac etc....were oposite each other.....my 2 cents..
1941 Cadillac Convertible Coupe
1949 Packard
1952 DeSoto
1956 Oldsmobile

Offline Rick Peterson #25685

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Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2010, 09:15:32 AM »
MGRAB   I think you've got it.  Satisfies me anyway.

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2010, 04:35:28 PM »
And I always thought it was because the Positive (+) meant that electricity was in abundant supply, and that Negative (-) stood for taking back. ;)

Bruce. >:D
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Offline Glen

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Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2010, 12:18:20 AM »
This explains why we have conventional current and electron flow.  We can blame it all on Benjamin Franklin. 

http://rare-earth-magnets.com/magnet_university/conventional_vs_electron_flow.htm

Glen
Glen Houlton CLC #727

Warren Rauch

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Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2010, 04:54:30 PM »
  Someone did ask what Cadillac said in 1946. From the Nov1945 Serviceman
    A fundamental change has been made in the electrical system of the 1946-series Cadillac cars. For the first time, Cadillac cars have an electrical system in which the negative battery terminal is grounded. This change has been made to conform with other General Motors car electical systems. The reasons behind the use of a positive battery ground are no longer significant.
 Maybe the war did make them change. Warren

Offline Brett Cottel

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Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2010, 09:12:53 PM »
Was there a reason that for most of the early days of electrical systems Pos ground seemed to be the most common?

Any idea why the change?   

Was the change usually at the same time as the change to 12v?

Was this all the same around the world?

I have a 1962 Fordson Super Major Tractor (which is a English built Ford) that has the pos ground and 12V
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Offline TJ Hopland

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Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2010, 10:45:52 PM »
I had late 50's Ford and Case tractors both were 6V +G.  I would guess it took longer for the industrial stuff to catch up.   I know I/O boats ran points till the mid 80's and did not make the switch to EFI till the late 90's. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/aftermarket EFI
75 Eldo rusty but trusty
80 Eldo Diesel
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2010, 11:55:11 PM »
Could be that the average Joe knows nothing about electricity and simply thinks of positive as being the working side and negative as being the ground.  How many times he stuck that battery in  wrong and fried the system, until someone woke up and standardized a negative ground system.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 12:02:38 AM by Wayne Womble 12210 »

Offline TJ Hopland

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Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2010, 08:37:23 AM »
So  what happens when you get it wrong?  I imagine you wont get any charging but does it hurt anything?  I know its been done.  I was working on a 50 Nash last summer that was hooked up wrong.  It started and ran.  We did not figure it out till we starting trying to get the charging system working.   Nothing appeared to be damaged because we got it working but there was a stuck brush in the genny and the regulator was way out of adjustment so maybe that saved it?
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/aftermarket EFI
75 Eldo rusty but trusty
80 Eldo Diesel
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Offline Otto Skorzeny

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Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2010, 08:46:45 AM »
You can fry some of the electrical components like lights and gauges if they are individually grounded negative and you hook a positive ground battery to them. You might start fires, etc.
fward

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Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2010, 09:48:46 PM »
Actually wont hurt much on the very old cars, but as voltage regulators, radios, and electronic accessories came into use, it is more likely to be damaging. 

Offline Gergely Szentmartony 25603

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  • 1988 Cadillac Brougham d'Elegance
Re: Reason for Neg vs Pos ground?
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2010, 01:44:46 PM »
I conducted research on the subject and found the following things.

Originally, early Delco systems used positive grounding. That’s clear.

It’s also clear that something happened between 5th February, 1942 (production of the last pre-war Cadillac vehicle) and 7th October, 1945 (production of the first post-war Cadillac vehicle) - apart from the World War II. and the things mentioned above:

After 20 years of Ernest W. Seaholm chief engineer era, John „Jack” F. Gordon became chief engineer of Cadillac in June 1943. In June 1946 John „Jack” F. Gordon became general manager of Cadillac, so Edward N. Cole became chief engineer then.
It means that even if Edward N. Cole had been obsessed with an idea of negative ground, it was too late for him to become the person to change the system, because he got the chief engineer post more than half a year later than the first post-war Cadillac was built.

However, John „Jack” F. Gordon could be the person, who insisted upon the negative ground system (for whatever reason) because he became the chief engineer between 5th February, 1942 and 7th October, 1945.
Anyway, it’s a fact that the only member of GM family using positive ground before the WWII was Cadillac. It seems that this time GM’s other brands forced “Standard of the World” to follow the main line.
If military standards had been the reason for the change then Ford and Chrysler (manufacturers of M3 and M4 tank engines and tanks) would also have changed to negative ground after WWII…..but they did not.


Anyway, let’s see another possible way:

I was searching for authentic sources on the internet for a long time, then I found a homepage which lists detailed technical data of American military vehicles (http://afvdb.50megs.com) – unfortunately there was no reference for the grounding.
Then I sent an e-mail to Chris Conners (moderator of this website), who sent me the photocopies attached (battery wiring diagrams from TM 9-729 for the light tank M24, published in February 1951). He also advised me to contact the „14th Armored Re-Creations” (http://www.14tharmoredre-creations.com/). They restored a couple of M5A1 tanks.
Tim Garrett (from the „14th Armored Re-Creations”) answered the following interesting things:
“Regarding your issues on positive and negative grounds in tanks-
The manual shows negative ground in all applications. That being said we have encountered many tanks that were set up with positive ground. Most of the Stuarts in Europe are being operated with pos ground. It works either way but POS is supposed to be hot and NEG is supposed to be ground.
In my opinion POS ground is bad and when we find a euro tank wired backwards we restore it to the manual specs.
The Stuarts were all 12v. The points were extra duty and there's nothing inline to lower the voltage to the ignition. The starters on the tanks have a double solenoid that's routed through the generator. If the generator isn't right the tank won't start (very hard to troubleshoot). Between the odd starter wiring and the gear set up in the started itself they'll work fine either way. The car starter is different and I've never tried to POS ground one. We've done a lot of swaps from POS to NEG ground. Discharge the batt (not necessary but an old timer told me to). Reverse the cables, charge the batt (slow), re-polarize both generators (Bat to field I think- I know what the two terminals look like). Fire it up and it's done.
If you don't re-polarize the gen you're headed for trouble.
There's a really odd design feature on the Stuarts that would make one think they were originally going to be positive ground but the plans must have changed. The odd feature remained. The HOT battery cable is completely uninsulated between the battery and it's junction even though it's really close to all kinds of metal where it could short easily.

It is like a border of two nations: pre-war: positive, post war: negative, no man’s land: a kind of mixture of both nations but not one particular.
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