starter mystery

[JIGarner]

My 62 eldorado has developed a starter problem. When I turn the key to the start position all I get is a click. It does not sound like the starter solenoid but more like a light or horn relay. Looking at the wiring diagram I see no relay before the solenoid. I disconnected the horn relay just for kicks.The starter still does not engage. I bought a new starter and the same condition still persists. I checked the ground cable and even placed a jumper cable to bypass it. I also jumped around the ignition switch and got only the clicking sound. I placed a jumper around the starter solenoid and the starter works. Since I am working alone I can't hear where the sound is coming from. I'm stumped.
Jim

[Geoff Newcombe #4719]

Assuming your "new" starter came with a new solenoid (which they usually do) you can probably eliminate the solenoid as a likely suspect. 
However, a poor battery connection, positive or negative, can and will produce the same results.  Remove the cables from your battery and clean the battery terminals and inside the cable ends that go over the terminals.  Be sure the other end of the ground cable is attached tightly to a clean surface, remove the cable there and clean the surface it mounts to.  Make sure the battery cables themselves are in good condition and not showing evidence of corrosion under the shielding.
Geoff N.

[The Tassie Devil(le) (Bruce Reynolds)]

Just a "Clicking" noise indicates to me that the Solenoid isn't pulling the Bendix in hard enough.

When the Solenoid is working correctly, there should be a very loud "Clicking" noise as the Slenoid is moving a distance as it pulls the Bendix into contact with the Ring Gear on the Flywheel.

This noise isn't generally heard as just before the Bendix is fully pushed into contact, the contacts at the other end of the Solenoid is creating the Electrical Contact to start the Starter Motor turning.

Sounds to me like either a bad Ground, or a bad electrical contact in the Positive Cable, or a flat battery.

Bruce.

[JIGarner]

The battery has a full charge. I cannot improve the ground. Everything is clean and tight. The lights do not dim when the switch is turned to the start position. I think the problem might be in the neutral switch. I hear the click no matter what position the gearshift lever is in. I don't think that is normal. Tonight I will remove the wire from the solenoid and turn the start switch to see if the click is still there. I will also recruit someone to turn the switch for me so I can locate the click. The strange thing is that I drove the car into the shop and it would not work again when I wanted to change bays. Thankfully I have a lift so I am not crawling back and forth under the car.
Jim

[Dave Shepherd]

Basic diagnostics here require checking for 12v at the starter wire at the solenoid when cranking, if none then back track thru the nuetral switch as mentioned.

[The Tassie Devil(le) (Bruce Reynolds)]

If the Solenoid is clicking, then it isn't the Neutral Start Safety Switch, as this Switch, when operating correctly, as in any gear, will not allow the Starter to do anything.

Bruce.

[Chris Conklin #25055]

... I checked the ground cable and even placed a jumper cable to bypass it. I also jumped around the ignition switch and got only the clicking sound. I placed a jumper around the starter solenoid and the starter works...

If I'm correctly understanding all of what you've done Jim, it seems you've isolated the issue back to the solenoid. It may be a "new" component, but nothings perfect, could still be a problem. You've arced power to it every different way you possibly can and the only time it works is when the solenoid is taken out of the picture (so to speak).

[quadfins]

Wouldn't the "click" indicate that the solenoid is pulling the gears into contact? To me, a "click-and-only-a-click" would indicate that the starter motor itself is not turning, after the bendix is pulled into contact. Is there any sound indicating the starter motor winding up in high RPM?

[The Tassie Devil(le) (Bruce Reynolds)]

When the Solenoid "Pulls-in" the Beldix, there is more than a simply "Relay-type Click".   It is more of a "Clunk" as it bottoms out at both ends as I mentioned before.

Bruce.

[Jose Gomez CLC #23082]

Bruce,

I second your first suggestion..!

Jim,

It looks like the solenoid is not getting a good 12V source for the first coil at the selenoid to pull-in as Bruce suggested. You could try removing the “blue” wire from the solenoid and connect a direct +12V source to the terminal; if the solenoid and starter are functional you would need to back track the problem from there.

I recall a previous post under a similar condition by a CLC member and he found a loose contact at the ignition switch.

Good luck..!

[JIGarner]

Mystery solved. The click was from the throttle rod speed adjuster for lack of a better nomenclature. The problem is a broken neutral safety switch. I bypassed the neutral switch and the starter worked. When the switch is replaced all will be well. Is there a trick to changing the neutral switch? I have the old one off, but the part that goes inside the column is broken off and I have not tried to force it to come out.
Thanks to all of you for your advice and suggestions. An exchange of ideas is always helpful.
Jim

[The Tassie Devil(le) (Bruce Reynolds)]

G'day Jim,

Great to hear that the problem is being sorted out, but sorry that it is going to cost money.

There is no real trick in removing or replacing the NSS, but the thing is to ensure that the switch aligns up with the operations of the shift tube.

As far as retrieving the broken tab, that might require a bit of fiddling around inside the "hole" with a piece of wire, needle-nose pliers, or tweezers, but in most cases, the piece will just "float" around low down, and just sit there for many years without causing any trouble whatsoever.

It cannot interfere with the Steering Column in any way.

Bruce.

[Steve W]

Hi Jim...

I just got home from work and started reading this thread, and as I was reading, it occurred to me what the problem was, because its the exact same problem I was having with MY car and I posted that some weeks ago! Too bad I didn't see this post earlier so I could have helped, but I'm glad you found the problem.

Now, onto the issue of your NSS.  Bruce is correct, try to fish out the old piece, just for your own peace of mind, but if not, don't worry, it wont be in the way.

My car is a 68 CdV, so the switches may be somewhat similar.
Look at my old post for what I had to go through. My switch also operated the vacuum switch on my parking brake release, and there is no direct replacement for it. Not wanting to pay BIG BUCKS for a used one ( I was quoted anywhere from $100.00-$300.00 ), I ordered a similar new switch through NAPA auto parts ($25.00, Electrically it was the same as 1968 Chev, Pontiac, Olds, etc) and  I made my own replacement switch from the plastic part of the new switch and the metal part of the old one. On my switch, it was the black plastic part that broke.
When you go to install the new switch, if it like mine was, it will come from the manufacturer in the Neutral position and may have a shear-pin holding it in neutral until the first time you shift it. Obviously because I had to "frankenstein" my switch, I didn't have that shear-pin, but it was pretty clear from the look of the switch where neutral is.
SO...place your car in neutral (with the brake on and wheels blocked, of course!) and connect the wires, start guiding your switch into place...you'll have to finesse it a bit, and you'll feel it drop into place. Depending on how your switch mounts to the column, it will have a bit of play so that you can make finite adjustments. Snug, but not tight. This is also your switch for the back-up lights, and you want to make sure they go on when you are in 'R'. Then make sure the car starts in Park and in Neutral and the back-up lights work in Reverse. When its all adjusted, tighten it up!

Good luck!

 

[quadfins]

Please note that the shift pattern differs between '62 and '68 transmissions, so the NAPA NSS for a '68 won't work on your '62.

My '61 had a sheared pin, too, and that was one of the first projects I undertook. Easy and simple, as long as you have the correct part.

[JIGarner]

It was the black plastic pin that broke on my switch. Fortunately I have a parts car and the switch from it is good. I probably broke the pin in the process of changing the gearshift lever and turn signal switch along with the steering wheel. Anyway it is under control now. Thanks for your input.
Jim

[Steve W]

I never meant to imply that the switches were the same, I was just sharing my experience, and the fact that there is more than one "fix" for the problem. I was assuming that you would find the replacement for the 62 switch.
By the way, its not that uncommon of a problem. Apparently, over the years, that plastic can get brittle and crack, break, or simply crumble.

[JIGarner]

The switch from the parts car looked good, bur the horn plunger connector had no spring action. To remedy this I took the back off both switches and put the slider with the pin into the original switch. I installed it and all systems work as designed. Thanks to all of you and the challenges of this exercise, I know a lot more about a 1962 Cadillac than I did .
Jim

[John Morris #23947]

I had this happen once, called in a mobile electrician at 60 bucks an hour, the chassis ground [small wire from neg batt cable] was bad. Took him 1 minute to fix, charged me the 1 hour minimum $60. Check both engine ground straps and body ground straps too.