eBay is a great resource for the message board

[Derek]

Robert,

I wish I could believe that my suggestion would be followed.  I do think that it would make it a more user-friendly forum for all concerned.  However, when most of the posters are no longer obeying the "Golden Rules" of the CLC forum, it seems unlikely that they will voluntarily obey any "suggested rules" put forth by members.  An exercise in futility.  

Regards,

Derek

[Derek]

...Besides our friendship, we also share the curse of dial-up internet, which makes the Ebay posts basically unusable.  My computer is older (upgrading is a low priority with my recent house purchase) and often the size and Javascript inclusions in the Ebay links lock up my older Netscape version entirely, which is more than just frustrating.  

My biggest complaint is that very little of the information being passed around is of use to anyone right now, beyond idle discussion of Ebay oddities, etc.  It has been a pleasure participating in the forum, and I appreciate everyone I have met in it and will continue to stay in contact with them.  

Perhaps a separate forum for the Ebay posts would be better, that way at least if people had an inclination to view them, they could.

Derek

[Randall Ayers McGrew CLC # 17963]

I dont know what to tell you.  I know of several long term members who only show up now and then.  Perhaps this is simply the cycle of life in such things...new people come in, enjoy the commeraderie and the technical side slips into obscurity.  I know I have very little to offer.  I hope I have not been part of this.  But I do see what you are saying and, as I have said before, have experienced it on another large forum.  

As our love of the marque changes and new voices are added, the older thrust is shifted.  Better, or not...it seems to be a common occurance in the life of any public forum.

I am a member of three major automobile clubs, the AACA, CCCA and CLC as well as the SCCA.  Of all of these groups with all of their assundry members and perspectives, the CLC is closest to my heart.  If I end up dropping one, it will be the AACA.  My son races in the SCCA so I will keep it.  
But no matter what, I will try and keep the good friends I have made over the years.  I know that is true of Derek as well.

"They will get my antique Cadillac when they pry my cold, dead fingers from the steering wheel!!"  

[Porter]

Club members and non members desire to own vintage Cadillacs and enjoy owning them and driving them, not an overpriced misrepesented nightmare.

Many people have a misconception of what these cars are worth, good cars are worthy of top dollar, much cheaper than restoring a POS.

The purpose of the club is to "develop, publish and exchange information pertaining to Cadillacs and LaSalles, to encourage the maintenance, preservation and restoration of Cadillacs and LaSalles, and to promote social fellowship among Club members."

That is the problem with e**y, people buying cars sight unseen and getting stuck, buying a car based on photos.

I have gotten to know some members here that bought sight unseen,(photos) a disaster,that will turn people away from even owning or having any interest in a vintage car, never again. Even hiring an appraiser can be a disaster. The only knowledgeable Cadillac people I have seen is within the club.

Perhaps a seprate forum for e**y cars is a good idea if it irritates smoe people so severly.

Anyone with good money that needs help assessing the value of a vintage Cadillac is a worthy discussion, probably some money to be made by some of the Cadillac experts here assesing these cars, it has been requested on the forum from members. I dont advocate beating fraudulant e**y cars to death as a national pastime.

There is a time and place for that, but not every other post.

Porter

[Lynn 10923]

Sorry to see you go, Derek. I, for one, have enjoyed your posts and magazine articles. I have generally answered a technical question when I know the answer, but I get tired of being "corrected" and then having to respond to that or else just letting it roll on. Several months ago I submitted some technical articles on 68 Cadillacs to the magazine in which you and others might have been interested. But to be nice, it didnt go well with our new illustrious editor. So what do I do? Its the clubs loss. As far as this board, I breeze past all the ebay stuff too, and generally anything else that gets more than about 6 responses long, as that seems to be about shanghai time. The length of some of these has been ridiculous. I dont have the time to read all this stuff. I read what interests me and ignore what doesnt. Youll be missed. Sorry to see you go.

Lynn

[Johnny]

Wow I stay away from the message board for a few hours and come back to a tsumami explosion of posts concerning ebay and, ironically the quality of posts on the board LOL. I could be argued that this whole thread about meaningless threads is meaningless LOL.

I frequent about 10 different message boards of very diversified subjects, and believe me they all are guilty of "straying from topic".  I go on the Eagles message board, and some lunatic comes in with stock investment tips!  My standard practice is to check out the "subject", if it doesnt interest me, I just delete it and go on.  When I come on the CLC message board, I first hit the "View new posts" tab.  The way the board is set up, no matter how much the post will be buried, it will be brought to your attention.  Frankly I see message boards going the same way as face to face dialogues among people.  Any time you are in a group of people, even with a common interest, the conversations always go all over the place.

[Porter]

On a message board about Cadillacs ?

I fully understand Dereks viewpoint and glad I brought this topic up for discussion, this was my knee jerk reaction to the 57 Eldorado "Sans" Brougham discussion, after the dust had settled.

I dont really take offense to anyones comments or where the topic strays too, funny thing is, it always starts out with Cadillac and sometimes gets "shanghaied", no big deal.

Any real Cadillac questions get answered from what Ive seen, winter time is slow for cars, sometimes you need some filler posts, no prob.

We are all aficianados of Cadillacs but share other knowledge as well, no harm done.


LOL,

Porter

[Derek]

Porter,

You are right, it wouldnt be so bad if it was a once-in-awhile thing, where someone is saying "Hey guys, critique this car for me, Im really thinking about bidding some of my hard-earned cash."  That would advance the purposes of the club as well as to actively help members.

 However, 99.9percent of the time its just a post to say how stupid the seller is, how stupid the bidders are for bidding on that POS, and hahah arent we superior because we know theres no such thing as an "1919 Eldorado Seville Calais Biarritz Convertible Sedan."

It just gets old, thats all.  And it does take a lot of time to sift through the junk to find the posts from people who are legitimately in need as opposed to the Ebay posts.

Derek

[Lou 19028]

I think the root of the problem is everyone is discussing all sorts of things on the same forum. The Ebay stuff should be under general CADILLAC discussion. There should be a separate forum for technical discussions and another for general conversation.  Problem 1/2 solved.   I know that most people dint like the idea of registration. But consider this,In a recent post someone made a statement about changing the facts on the history of a Cadillac. Quite a few(including myself)began to doubt this persons masterpiece. The comment was far out there,  I really thought that someone used his name just to "stir the pot". The only way I could think of to verify the author was to ask for full disclosure. Thankfully The person explained his comment. The point is , If we get one agitator/troll on this board it could and will turn a lot of people off to the board and even potentially cause bad blood between CL members. Its to risky to continue this way.  
Regards, Lou

[Derek]

Good conversation among intelligent people does stray from the topic or else it wouldnt be conversation, it would be merely stating facts and thats it.  Im not bothered by discussing, say, real estate in a Cadillac forum, or whatever.  

The main thing that bugs me is the hugeness that some threads develop where it starts with something insipid, like a link to a car with no picture of the passenger side seat headrest.  Then it turns into a flood of one-word replies and short barbs:

MAIN TOPIC:  Check out this Rare Cad:!!  

Link to Ebay.

1st reply:  "Hahaha, a 4 door Brougham convertible?  Any dumb*** knows thats not real."

2nd reply:  "Yeah!"

3rd reply:  "I agree."

4th reply:  "No way, 4 door Broughams were made for 10 minutes on Tuesday, January 17th, 1965, as part of a UAW strike agreement against the manufacturers."

5th reply: "I am amazed by the number of people who STILL dont realize what a great resource they have in the Cadillac Database.  From my own files:  (proceed to condescending and long-winded description of the myth of the 4-door Brougham convertible.)"

6th reply:  "No way."

7th reply:  "One passed me going southbound on 117 when I was 5 years old and my parents were taking us to Disneyland one year."

8th reply:  "You like Disneyland too?  Cool."

etc. etc.

Derek

[Andrew 10642]

I agree with Dereks observations about the decline of technical assistance in the postings, and the increase in  meaningless tangent issues.  The Dale Jackson postings were the worst case, but even now three 40+ response threads push everything out.

I do think a new forum would solve some of the issue. . .

Other clubs have different areas of disfunction.

When I was in my early 20s, I owned a 67 Eldo, which was rarely covered in the literature from the club (this is 1991) and there was no local chapter.  (In fact, the local chapter just started in my area this year).  The only thing membership got me was a magazine.  I have learned alot about Cadillacs that I otherwise would have remained completely ignorant of by reading it.  I think the club is slowly shifting to an appreciation to the models of the 60s and 70s as members age.  So Derek, please check back in a few weeks or months, when the Board may be less irritating.  Your posts were valued by me, and I dont own an Eldo!  Just thought they were well done.

[Derek]

While I agree with Lou that even one troll can cause huge problems, I think the answer is more vigilant moderation of the posts, rather than registration or a plethora of forums.

To address the "separate forums for each subject" issue, I would direct anyone who is inclined to visit the LCOC board at www.lcoc.com.  They have a forum for each different possible topic:  Engine/transmission, Body/electrical, etc. etc.  The problem with this is that the only forum that is regularly visited is the "Engine/Transmission" forum, which has become the de facto "general" forum for their organization.  Having made posts in their other forums that go unnoticed for weeks, many members (myself included) started just posting everything under the "Engine/Transmission" forum, and linking it to engines or drivetrains incidentally.  

Example:  "My Lincolns steering column needs rebuilt because the engine wont start due to a faulty ignition actuator arm.  Anyone have any ideas about how to do this?"  

Sure, you post it under Electrical, or Interior, or wherever it might be better suited, but you will probably get no answer because increasing the number of forums exponentially increases the number of messages and sites each person must visit when they log in.  An "Ebay Only" discussion forum would remove that volume of posts from our General Discussion board without preventing those so inclined to see it from doing so.

Second, the issue of registration has often been discussed, but I think the most salient point is the idea that it is yet another hurdle to membership for most people.  I have so many passwords and login names on the Net just to do things like check email and student loans, etc., I can barely remember them, and I am young!!  Adding another password or login name makes it that much more hassle, and also more work for the webmaster, as people are constantly forgetting.

I stopped visiting the LCOC forum after forgetting my THIRD new login name and password because, not being a frequent contributor, I would often forget which password I had used, or how I had set up my login name.  Was I "1984Lincoln?"  "84TownCar?"  Or "Dsherwood?"  And what password did I link with that, anyway?

The key is to have moderators who are regularly zapping posts from trolls and others.  The moderators at www.subguns.com, another board I frequent, are VERY quick and VERY serious about trolls, imposter posting, and enforcing the rules, and it generally leads to a pretty stable environment without registration.  Anonymous posting is even allowed within the rules of the forum, but nudity, swearing, etc., are not, and are strictly regulated.

Regards,

Derek

[Derek]

Andrew,

I always enjoyed your posts, too, they were interesting and often of a technical nature.  I like replying to posts about car problems or any other issues, but as others have said, I am often hesitant to do so anymore because of the fear of sarcastic correction if a small mistake is made, or even of the entire post getting buried in the constant snowballing of 40+ reply nonsense posts.  Lately I find myself cancelling more posts than I make.

I have learned a lot from the magazine too but lately, although it is still very well done (thanks Steve!) it has a lot of meaningless information to me as a young guy.  

Like you say, appreciation is starting to move to the cars of the 1960s and 70s, but it is happening slowly.  I am willing to bet that it will be 5-10 years yet before they are appreciated.  I was born in 1978, and Im nowhere near a classic yet.  LOL.

Another thing about the club on a slightly unrelated note is the "high school student-council-like" self-appreciation and back patting that happens at the executive level.  There are a lot of unanswered questions I have about that whole thing.  It seems there is still a strong contingent of "good old boys" who run the whole show and basically ensure that the 41 Cad is still the most popular and most discussed model in the organization.  There is still a strong resistance to modification or even discussion of newer Cadillacs -- witness Stampies troubles getting the Modified Chapter started and approved.  

Regards,

Derek

[Derek]

Lynn,

Thanks for the compliments.  I agree with you, I find myself cancelling posts because I dont feel like subjecting myself to nit-pickers and random criticism.  I appreciate constructive criticism -- if I tell someone that it doesnt matter what size spark plugs you use, PLEASE, tell me about it!!  But there is a general shift towards unconstructive and even sarcastic criticism and questioning going on among members that troubles me.  

Witness the posts made to people like Peter Luft in the "Buy/Sell Board," or even when I posted a query about dieseling on my 72 Eldo, and I got the response "Is this the same car you are trying to unload on CLC members?" (this from someone who didnt post a real name or email address!)  Im sorry, this is supposed to be a hobby and be fun, not a live-fire drill where you have to duck and cover to avoid personal attacks whenever you post a message.

I would love to read your 68 Cadillac tech articles, thats the kind of stuff I like to see in the Self-Starter, although lately I havent seen anything like it.  Please email them to me if you get a chance, Id really like to read them.  That kind of information is relevant and interesting to me as a former 68 Cadillac owner and I wish we had more of that in our magazine, and less "From  the Cadillac Mailing List Archives" email reprints.  

I still have a few articles on reserve somewhere in the editors files, Im not worried about them getting printed or not, like I said to him in an email "the name of the magazine isnt "Derek Sherwoods Self-Starter."  But like your articles, it would be nice to see them printed because they would be of interest to many.

Regards,

Derek

[Brian Rachlin]

I have been regularly reading and posting here since I purchased my 76 Eldo this fall.  I have also been a regular on the HT4100 board, which is completely different, and sticks to technical topics and sharing of parts and information.

I would hate to see Derek go, because he is a very knowledgable hobbyist, and has been helpful to me on many occasions.  I have been "into" Cadillacs since 1964 as a small kid when my Dad bought a brand new SDV and we took a cross country trip in it.

I have owned many Cadillacs, all convertibles since the late 70s, and find the internet a fantastic information resource, but you need to be very careful about taking what you see and read as total fact.

I think that the Ebay topic is a source of irritation sometimes because you have to realize that there are many people who range from novice collectors who dont know any better to blatant thieves and frauds looking to scam the uninformed.

I have sold cars on Ebay, I have bought cars on ebay, and have gotten great deals on both cars, parts, and literature.  That being said, let me tell you that I never sent anyone any money on a car sight unseen, and always bought cars that were within a days drive and picked them up personally, after inspecting the vehicle. If you ask the right questions, the liars will easily reveal themselves.  Also, dont make it strictly an email transaction.  Ask for a phone number, and converse on the phone.  You can tell a lot about the type of person that you are potentially dealing with by their demeanor on the phone, and things you might hear in the background during a conversation.

You have to treat an internet purchase just like buying any used car, and you cant depend on the buyer to represent the car honestly either out of ignorance or just plain deception.

You can walk away from a transaction if you need to.  I cant understand buying a car, paying for it, and having it shipped to you.  If you are buying a parts car, or resto project, thats fine, but if you are buying a running vehicle, and you dont drive it and inspect it yourself, you get what you get.

I have sold cars that were paid for and then shipped, and never had a complaint upon delivery, but they were honestly represented, even understated slightly.

As far as this message board is concerned, I think that if there were more topics at the beginning of the page, you could simply post or read what you may be interested in so you dont have to wade through things you are not interested in.  Here is a suggested list:

1. Info Needed              ( specifications, etc)

2. Drivability issues       (Car wont start, vibration,       electrical problems, etc.

3.  Tech tips             (heres how I fixed...)

4.  Cars for Sale

5.  Parts for Sale

6.  Literature for Sale

7.  Cars Wanted

8.  Parts Wanted

9.  Literature Wanted

10.  Ebay discussion

The last time I made a suggestion about using passcodes to post, it was not very well recieved, and I will probably get slammed for this one too, but Derek does have a point, and remember, for every dissatisfied person that complains, there are 10 that just dissapear.

Anyway, just my thoughts...

Brian

[Michael Stamps 19507]

Derek,
  Get ready to learn more than you ever thought you could know about the cam design on the 472/500 engines.  Lynn is an expert on these engines and I wish his information would get out more to the members and non members interested in it.

Stampie

[Brian Rachlin]

I have been regularly reading and posting here since I purchased my 76 Eldo this fall. I have also been a regular on the HT4100 board, which is completely different, and sticks to technical topics and sharing of parts and information.

I would hate to see Derek go, because he is a very knowledgable hobbyist, and has been helpful to me on many occasions. I have been "into" Cadillacs since 1964 as a small kid when my Dad bought a brand new SDV and we took a cross country trip in it.

I have owned many Cadillacs, all convertibles since the late 70s, and find the internet a fantastic information resource, but you need to be very careful about taking what you see and read as total fact.

I think that the Ebay topic is a source of irritation sometimes because you have to realize that there are many people who range from novice collectors who dont know any better to blatant thieves and frauds looking to scam the uninformed.

I have sold cars on Ebay, I have bought cars on ebay, and have gotten great deals on both cars, parts, and literature. That being said, let me tell you that I never sent anyone any money on a car sight unseen, and always bought cars that were within a days drive and picked them up personally, after inspecting the vehicle. If you ask the right questions, the liars will easily reveal themselves. Also, dont make it strictly an email transaction. Ask for a phone number, and converse on the phone. You can tell a lot about the type of person that you are potentially dealing with by their demeanor on the phone, and things you might hear in the background during a conversation.

You have to treat an internet purchase just like buying any used car, and you cant depend on the buyer to represent the car honestly either out of ignorance or just plain deception.

You can walk away from a transaction if you need to. I cant understand buying a car, paying for it, and having it shipped to you. If you are buying a parts car, or resto project, thats fine, but if you are buying a running vehicle, and you dont drive it and inspect it yourself, you get what you get.

I have sold cars that were paid for and then shipped, and never had a complaint upon delivery, but they were honestly represented, even understated slightly.

As far as this message board is concerned, I think that if there were more topics at the beginning of the page, you could simply post or read what you may be interested in so you dont have to wade through things you are not interested in. Here is a suggested list:

1. Info Needed ( specifications, etc)

2. Drivability issues (Car wont start, vibration, electrical problems, etc.

3. Tech tips (heres how I fixed...)

4. Cars for Sale

5. Parts for Sale

6. Literature for Sale

7. Cars Wanted

8. Parts Wanted

9. Literature Wanted

10. Ebay discussion

The last time I made a suggestion about using passcodes to post, it was not very well recieved, and I will probably get slammed for this one too, but Derek does have a point, and remember, for every dissatisfied person that complains, there are 10 that just dissapear.

Anyway, just my thoughts...

Brian  

[Andrew 10642]

Ill be the first to admit that I pay virtually no attention to the politics of this organization, as I am already pissed off at enough of the world, and therefore just prefer to think "happy thoughts" of all who reside within the Cadillac family.

What can I say, Im an idiot!!

Honestly, life is too short, even at 24 Derek, to let a little bureacratic nonsense get you down.  I know that sounds age condescending, but it truly is not meant to be.  I also own a 1979 Mercedes 6.9 (not worth crap), and the club associated with it had so much internal fighting that a separate club was started.  This for a car with total production of less than 1900 vehicles in 4 years.  Clubs should be more tolerant, but life can be hard.  

Although I prefer the original stuff without modifications, I also prefer not dieing in traffic, so safety modifications are fine by me. Cars from 67 and before are not safe as designed for modern accident avoidance on a freeway.  I have almost bifurcated a Honda on more than one occasion.  Thank God for leather seats:)

Anyway, if "Pimp my Ride" and "Monster Garage" is any indication, modifications will keep growing, but originals will always be there too.  I wish the club realized that modified vehicles are not inherently evil.  Also, I need to learn how to weld, and who else will be able to answer my questions on the Board when I accidently cut a fender off?

[Lou]

Moderation would work, but it wont stop a troll from stealing the ID of another member on this forum. The only way is sign ons with a post count next to the sig. Eagle eye moderators will pick out a troll easy.   Here is my other favorite stomping ground. There is 47,000 members.They average 2000 post a day. With only a hand full of hard line moderators.  http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/

 For me its just as hard to remember my CLC# never mind a pass word   Stick around Derek, Us 70s guys need to stay together.

[Michael Stamps 19507]

I only know of one post recently that was done by an impostor.  As I was the one being imposed on and no one else ever mentioned it to me I assume it was handled in a quick and effiecent mannor.  There are moderators on the board but the line imho is very fine.  What post belongs where?  Should this post be allowed because it has some technical merrit but might say something bad about a vendor?  The moderators of this forum do a good job and try to be timely but if they go too far then the help for those that need it disappears because of no freedom of expression.

My 2 cents,
Stampie

PS - The offending post mentioned above was traced to the real person that posted it and the issue was resovled easily.